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1. 88已上車 2014-01-06 10:28:22
股市樓市甚至具有連帶關係
樓市普遍以租金作基準
股市透明度相對較低
一方崩盤會有連鎖反應, 兩敗俱傷


2. "鋤強扶弱" 2014-01-06 10:42:12
D評論員用股市同樓市作比較,
是否也在將樓市也看作投資工具,
咁即係認同買樓係投資增嘅方法之一,
成日話有泡沬,怕爆破時影響社會,
咁係咪應該將高PE嘅股票用辣招壓吓佢,
又連年賺錢但又偏偏不派息嘅股票也出招管一下.
你有你買股票投資增值收股息,
我有我買樓等增值收租,
點解就要俾人列入黑五類?
"鋤強扶弱" 嘅新解?

3. Alan Pepper 2014-01-06 13:39:12
"成績是不分軒輊,在2012年,股市,樓市均上升超過20%,兩者相差不足1%,股市勝,2013年,兩者均輕微上升僅僅超過2%"

股市勝 1-2% 已經已經被租金 2.5-3.5% 蓋過了...

誰勝誰負不太重要, 但他們沒有理由說樓市必然上升, 但樓市必然下跌. 
4. 周顯 2014-01-06 16:40:19

明水和暗水

你買了房子,可以用來自住,可以用來收租,更加可以丟空了,乾放着,等它升值。然而,當你把房子用來出租時,收回來的租金,便是你的投資回報。

在一般的投資計算,可以用年租金收入,來計算租金的回報率。例如說,你的房子的價值是一千萬元,年收租金五十萬元,回報率便是五十萬除以一千萬,即5%了。

問題在於,這個算法是不對的。

因為,一間房子在出租了一年之後,價值是會改變的。房地產是建築物,而建築物是會折舊的。我們可以看到,十年樓的價格,是低於新樓一成至兩成,而三十年樓的價格,更是低上兩成以上,五十年樓的價格,那就更低了。

依我的約略計算,新樓的貶值率,大約是2%至3%之間,而這是以複式計算的。換言之,假設樓的第一年折舊率是100乘98%,即98,到了第二年,那是98%乘98%,即是96.04%,餘此類推。這即是說,新樓在最初的幾年,折舊的速度比較快,而愈到後來,折舊的速度愈慢。

所以,我一直以來,認為租樓千萬要租新樓,但是買樓卻要買十年至二十年左右的樓,因為這時樓的「高速折舊期」已經過去了,跟着的折舊會變慢,但是,這個時間的房子,依然有着足夠的新淨,自住也不太委屈了自己。

所以,如果計算租金的回報,必須也計上樓宇的折舊,才能夠計算出真實的回報率。因此我常常說,在樓價的最瘋癲期,如果把折舊也計算上,實際租金是負回報,我見過價值七千萬元,在淺水灣的豪宅,只租十萬元,我也心思思想租番一間。

為甚麼很多人都會忽略了樓宇的折舊呢?因為在yield來說,它是一種「暗水」,意即是隱藏的成本,如果不是專業人士,便往往看不到這一點了。

這好比當年的我,並不明白為甚麼人們收到了派息,便歡天喜地﹕這明明是股票的價值減少了,股價加上派息,總值可是不變的。然而,如果你手上拿着一張股票,這一張股票並沒有變化,也沒有缺角或短少了,無端端卻又收到了一份現金,這好比無故多出了一份禮物,表面上,當然是值得高興的事。

結論是,租金就和股票派息的原理一樣,因為有「明水」可收,便看不到「暗水」了。這實在是人類分析事物的盲點。

5. 似是而非的明水和暗水 2014-01-06 18:21:14
好想在office大聲笑出來!
6. Or Sir 2014-01-06 18:51:30

我是一個普通小學老師,甚麼投資也不懂,只懂買樓,買地(外國),過去十年已賺了千萬及攻完兒子讀大學;什麼明水,暗水都不會理會,現在正教兒子如何開始供第二層樓(香港和澳洲)。這都是教他儲錢的好方法。我在這裏並不是誇耀自己,只不過是勸年青人不,早些確立目標,以買樓及買地作儲蓄工具。不要沉迷賭波、炒股,亂消費。

7. k仔 2014-01-06 19:19:30
周顯寫樓市可以不看
8. Alan Pepper 2014-01-06 19:49:21
To 4F. 

This is partially true. And I believe everyone who invest in properties understands this. However he is far from the entire truth. Depreciating the entire lump sum is the biggest mistake. One should separate the value of property into 2 parts, land price and building cost. The depreciation only applies to the building costs,  but land prices will appreciate over the long run. 

Let's say  building costs is about 3000 per Sq. Ft. And land price is 10000, One should depreciate the 3000,  not the entire 13000. If the depreciation rate is 10% it should depreciate 300 each year. That comes to about 2% per year for example. But on the other have the land prices rise in the long run, so the depreciation is offset or even surpassed by the appreciation. This will depend on the given time in market. 

Secondly the depreciation rate is reduced every year and the salvage value will rarely become 0, or it will take a very long time. Because buildings that are over 50 years old are everywhere, and in the case when the property can be redeveloped it is usually for the purpose of using up the plot ratio. Usually yielding higher selling price if sold to a developer, or if it is developed by the original owners they will be entitled to more Sq ft.

Thirdly if you buy a 2nd hand flat, renovation is probably required for properties that are more than 10 - 20 years old. This mean you have to pay an extra 5-15% of the property value (depending how much you wanna spend). Bare in mind that this is cash up front, and cannot put into mortgage (or you pay high interest if you take a renovation loan) . You can argue that you don't need renovation, but if you buy a new flat there's absolutely no need for renovation (you are of course welcome to renovate a new flat) . 

So although his theory of "clear water" and "dark water" has some logic, his foundation certainly cannot hold up and was not well thought out. 
9. x 2014-01-06 19:50:27
x蜆講股,仲更加可以不看!!
10. Alan Pepper 2014-01-06 20:05:18
 "所以,如果計算租金的回報,必須也計上樓宇的折舊,才能夠計算出真實的回報率。因此我常常說,在樓價的最瘋癲期,如果把折舊也計算上,實際租金是負回報,我見過價值七千萬元,在淺水灣的豪宅,只租十萬元,我也心思思想租番一間。" 

I also think he doesn't understand owning luxury properties. Although I would also advise against owning such properties for rental yield (about 2%) because as professor said a year ago,  renting out these properties is like offering slave service for the tenants, as they usually require more attention and services. But then again. Tenants in "normal" locations also may require attention. It really depends on the individual tenant. 

On the other hand Mr. Chow is probably not familiar with the potential upside of these properties especially in areas like repulse Bay. As the land available in these locations are extremely scarce. 

11. Property Owner 2014-01-06 21:33:08
4樓 周顯,  看你都是有經驗但無理論的

公司會計都知到 樓價包含 land cost  and building cost. 只有 building cost 要折舊

折舊使building value 減值, land value 在香港就只有增值

如果leasehold land 無 value, 地產商的拍地錢都是枉给政府啦